Curse

Beat_Go_Stick · May 30, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

So there is the stupidly large "Fix The Eles!" thread already but it turned into a debate of whether or not Eles are broken with a more flaming than helpful comments and far too much arguing of whether or not the problem is actually a problem for my taste (which unfortunately seems to be the best way to boost a thread count over 60)...

I think we can all agree that, regardless of your view on elemental damage and the purpose of the Elementalist, there is definitely room for improvement in the class. A certain space where it seems like A.Net could add something cool without making the class overpowered. So I'll begin with a nice set of ideas posted by....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dingo Dave

I agree that they aren't teribly efficient, but why all this ridiculous arguing - why not something totally radical

Each of the Elementalist skills has a little added

Fire Magic - For every 4 levels every fire spell you cast does an extra 1 second of burning on target.

Air Magic - For every 4 levels every air spell you cast does an extra 1 second of weakness on target.

Earth Magic - For every 4 levels every earth spell you cast does an extra 1 second of poison on target.

Water Magic - For every 4 levels every water spell you cast does an extra 1 second of 33% speed reduction on target.

Energy Storage - For every 4 levels you gain 1 extra pip of energy regen.

Not bad ideas.....
Fire - I like it. Monks can still counter it but it gives them a serious reason to remove the burning condition. The only problem I could see is that spells like Flare would suddenly become the best damage dealers in the game....It would take some testing and tweaking (like maybe an additional text to spells that spam that says "This spell does not set the target on fire") but it's something to think about. It may seem a little powerful at first glance but, hey, they are masters of fire

Air - Weakness is pretty severe when you consider air spells are highly spammable...the way you suggest, an unchecked ele could easily keep weakness on 2 warriors and possibly a ranger at the same time. Maybe 1 second for 9 levels of air so someone could get 2 seconds worth if they were really lucky? Even with 1 second of weakness, a level 16 air ele could keep weakness on 1 target pretty much indefinitely...

Earth - Poison? Doesn't make much sense....honestly, I think Earth is one of the lines that doesn't really need a buff. Armor ignoring attacks, Wards, KD, Armor buffs....it's a solid defensive line with a nice offense already. Maybe +5 armor for the caster for 1 second per 4-5 levels or something like that?

Water - Again, a little too powerful. Water speed reductions are pretty brutal (best thing about that skill line already) and don't need a buff, imo. Maybe a clause that makes the spells like icy ground? If your target is standing still when hit by a damaging water spell, he is slowed by 33% for 1 second for every 4 levels (maybe cancel it out if they are hit by fire damage)? That way it can only hit if they are standing still and will only slow them for 3-4 seconds. Chain casting would have little to no effect since the person could start moving again.

Energy Storage - That should be +1 pip for every 8 levels....5-6 pips of natural energy regen is huge. Being able to spec 16 Air + 13 Energy Storage and get a regen of +7 would be waaaaaaay too much. Another idea would be to have higher levels of Energy Storage reduce exhaustion...maybe reduce it by 1 point for every 3 levels of ES for a maximum of 5?

Let's continue on this line of thought instead of focussing on what an Elementalist should or shouldn't be. There is definitely room for improvement without overpowering the class (redundancy FTW!

). We just have to step back and realize that until we stop demanding they be the best fill in the blank, nothing will happen to them at all. Let's make them more useful (though I still honestly think they aren't bad as they are now) instead of trying to turn them into what A.Net obviously doesn't want them to be.

Try to keep comments and ideas constructive. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing but, if you do, please say why and try to come up with something else instead of the standard 1-line reply

BahamutKaiser · May 31, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

I like the idea of another modifier for elemental damage added into each element, but adding a certain amount of any condition to every elemental spell of that line is way overpowered. The primary Earth condition is blind by the way, with dirt and ashes flying in your eyes, that and knockdown which is more than a condition.

It would be nice if a little something extra was added to the effect of elemental attributes, but secondary attributes revolve around increasing the power of whatever the skills in that line are ment to do, not adding secondary effects, the skill damage equations or amount of damage increased with each point in an attribute are the only things a secondary attribute should really effect.

But for energy storage, I realy do think a secondary effect should be added. simply having a large starting energy pool realy isn't helpful, it gives elementist only 2 legitimate advantages, and both are rather poor. The first is a significant starting energy pool, but with elementist skill costs, all that realy does is allow elementist to cast his overly priced skills as much as other classes, unless you have max points in energy storage plus a good energy management skill, your energy is gone in a flash. The second more important improvement energy storage allows is the ability to operate with exhaustion. With high energy you can take 1 or 2 hits of exhaustion without losing half your energy pool, leaving you energy to continue casting, wile any other class would take a serious hit in energy with 2, sometimes even one serving of exhaustion. But exhaustion is still stiffling, even with energy waving over 100, reusing exhaustion skills can put you on the bench for minutes.

I think that Energy Storage have a dual improvement, 3 energy per point, plus 1 additional point of energy regeneration per 8 points, allowing 1 energy regen at lvl 8, and 2 at the very maximum of 16. Even with maximum levels of energy and increased regeneration, elementist will still be short of the very significant effects other classes primary attribute for their skills, compared to a Monk casting Heal Party for twice as much healing, an elementist may be able to cast heal party twice as many times initially, but will have a max of only 50% more energy restoration to keep up with those heals in a continous battle.

Alternately, energy storage could increase energy by 3 per point, and reduce exhaustion by 1 point of energy for every 4 points in Energy storage. This would instead allow elementist to soully improve in exhaustion management even more so Exhaution truely doesn't hurt an elementist. This doesn't improve elementists power in any other classes skills since none of them require exhaustion as a skill cost. With 16points in Energy storage, you could reduce exhaustion costs by 4 points, with 100+ energy and an exhaustion penalty of only 6 energy, you could reasonably cast exhausting skills repeatedly without totaly shutting down yourself. This only further improves elementists ability to use skills which cause exhaustion, and allows him to cast his skills without worry. Otherwise, a non-elite glyph should be added which simply cancels exhaustion, with a recast of 10 or 15 seconds. This would allow elementist, or other classes to equipt exhaustion managment along with Glyph of Energy, or another elite, simply removing exhaustion repeatedly is alot useful then an using an elite to reduce exhaustion and cost, expecially for skills which don't cost any significan't energy anyways.

I don't mind the damage that elementists do, it is rather balanced even if it is weaker then the classes description portrays, but requiring 2 energy managment skills along with a self healing skill just to continue casting your attacks is rather limiting. Elementist skills are not way over the top in damage, they are significantly watered down in comparison, if Elementist had a little better energy storage and some faster recast times, they would actually be able to continue battle without standing around waiting for energy or recast times to return.

I agree that improving elementist attributes and skills would make elementist more powerful, and likely raise their importance in a party a rung. But I also believe that Elementist is down a rung in being able to use his own skills just reasonably, because of the massive energy demand on his own skills, outside of exhaustion managment, Expertise blows Energy Storage out of the water, even for Heal Party spamming. You have to use Energy Storage plus an elite skill to make good use of Heal Party spaming with current ES (that's short for Energy Storage). Unless Elementist ability to cast at least his own skills is improved, it will always suffer from a rather significant weakness.

The other point I would like to express is that Elementist isn't the only class which could and should be improved. There are several ways to improve and diversify other classes abilities. Expecially for certain other classes primary attributes. Necromancers Primary is only useful if enemies or allies are dieing, it allows you to gain the energy needed to use death skills immediately, but it is a seriously and possibly determental requirement. It would be good if they added a skill which granted Necromancers other benifits when enemies/allies drop as well, like a Soul Reaping skill which grants Health for every killed player/creature, or some health and temporary boost in health regeneration or armor. Something like a skill which causes all deaths in the area to grant some health and other stats as well as the energy when creatures die. Mesmers Primary is also very situational, it improves your casting speed so you are harder to interrupt and can interrupt others more easily, but that is only important if your being shutdown or skilled enough and designed to interrupt others. I realy think that several skills should be available in the Fast Casting attribute, that way improving fast casting is more rewarding. For instance, a stance, enchantment or skill which, for a set period of time, grants the Mesmer health for every enemy skill they interrupt and disable, this would be rather powerful when used with Blackout, or several interrupt skills. Getting a nice shot of health right before you wipe out an enemies and your own skills for a period of time can be a real life saver.

I am under the conviction that all the classes can be improved in one way or another, trying to weigh down certain and all classes just to keep balance causes certain classes to be much less enjoyable. And in the end, enjoyment is the bottom line, Great gameplay and mechanics, balance and flavor all revovle around the neccessity to entertain and delight customers. When balance is such a burden that it ursurps enjoyment, it betrays the true purpose it is ment to serve. Balance doesn't have to be something that holds everyone down, if a certain class needs a significant improvement, developers should consider raising the maximum potential overall, or over many classes, so certain classes can be made enjoyable. Under this pretense, and simply in the name of progress, all classes should be considered for overall improvement, in either skills, attribute effect, weapon selection, and many other opportunities.

Because Warrior, Monk, Necromancer, Ranger, Mesmer and Elementist will be the core classes which we will be provided with in any and every chapter, and are the base spectrum of available classes as primaries and secondaries, these should be improved and revitalized periodicly. These are the classes which we will have every time, other classes will join in, but these are the baseline, and they should not lag behind in improvision and improvement just because they are already developed in a current fashion.

I appreciate anyone who has taken the time to recognize my perspective, thanks for reading and hopefully respecting.

The Great Al · May 31, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

I 100% agree with the original poster. Well, the weakness duration is pretty long, but burning, once you get past the northern shiverpeaks, does very, very little damage to anyone. Immolate and both rodgorts both do 3 (or 4?) seconds of burning, which..is nothing. For earth...howbout instead of increasing poison duration (Which I don't think is an effect of any earth spell), for every x amount of levels, the elementalist has a x% chance of evading an attack?

I think the main problem with most elemental damage is that it does not penetrate armor. I think that all elementall attacks should be at 25% armor-ignoring, and that air attacks are at 50%.

lishi · May 31, 2006, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

I 100% agree with the original poster. Well, the weakness duration is pretty long, but burning, once you get past the northern shiverpeaks, does very, very little damage to anyone. Immolate and both rodgorts both do 3 (or 4?) seconds of burning, which..is nothing. For earth...howbout instead of increasing poison duration (Which I don't think is an effect of any earth spell), for every x amount of levels, the elementalist has a x% chance of evading an attack?

I think the main problem with most elemental damage is that it does not penetrate armor. I think that all elementall attacks should be at 25% armor-ignoring, and that air attacks are at 50%.

3 seconds of burning are 42 damage , more then what spell do to high level mob

the unconditional condition on all spell imo are pretty unbalacing , to make it work a major rebalacing will be needed on all spell.

is just better rebalance the underpowered spell.

and about energy storage and extra pipe of regen ...

it will just flat the elementalist making it more easy to play.

Currently to be a good elementalist(and on ever other class) a major effort( in skillbar slot and energy wise comsuption) is dont use more energy then what you can gain back.

there are already too many people who begin the battle , spam skill , stop after 30-60 second pinging their energy.

Imo in pve after one group of mob no one should regulary ping their energy for regen.

The Great Al · May 31, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

energy has never been a big problem for me. A simple healing breeze at the same time that someone is burning, is more than enough to counter it. It needs to either do more degen, or last longer.

NatalieD · May 31, 2006, 03:22 AM // 03:22

I don't think any "quick fix" ideas that rely on blanket buffs to whole attributes are going to work. What's needed is specific changes to individual skills. Yes, it's a bit more work, but having a variety of good skills to choose from is far preferable to just making the existing good spells even better while still providing no incentive to use the others.

And giving more energy to elementalist primaries is just going to let them cast Heal Party more often. They need good spells to spend their energy on, not just more energy for their crappy spells.

Nevin · May 31, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39

You guys are completely ignoring the 5 energy spam spells each element has... Flare, Stone Daggers, Ice Spear, Lightning Strike. Considering how easy they would be spammed I'd suggest...

Fire Magic - For every 8 levels every fire spell you cast does an extra 2 second of burning on target.

Air Magic - For every 4 levels every air spell you cast does an extra 1 second of blindess on target.

Earth Magic - For every 4 levels every earth spell you cast does an extra 1 second of weakness on target.

Water Magic - For every 4 levels every water spell you cast does an extra 1 second of 33% speed reduction on target.

Energy Storage - For every 8 levels, every spell you cast has a 25% chance to give back 30% of the energy required to cast it. (Basically like a constant attunement)

demon dantes · May 31, 2006, 05:45 AM // 05:45

still don t understand the problem with the ele s ? i have been a earth ele for a long time and only problem i have is the skills i want to use for my combo s all have exhation but ehh i move on. as powerfull as a ele is i think they are fine just the way they are.

Undivine · May 31, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

First I want to thank Beat_Go_Stick for starting this thread. That last one was dreadful.

Secondly, giving eles an innate condition for each attribute seems a little lazy and arbitrary to me. Mind you it would be funny to see an ele cast Fire Attunement on himself and burst into flames. If you are going to buff the spells in this way, I suggest doing it on a spell-by-spell basis.

Thirdly, perhaps instead of energy storage providing pips of energy, the ele just gets 1 more pip via their armor. I mean, why not? They are the ones who need it, so I think it would be reasonable to give him 5 pips total. It's just kinda lame to have all that energy and then after an intense battle you have to wait a minute or two to get back to full energy. I know, you don't have to get to full energy, but if that's the case then the whole energy storage thing is a bit of a waste.

I also think it's about time ANet made some spells cost 20 energy. Spells always cost 5, 10, 15, or 25 energy. I don't know why they skipped over this number, or for that matter why energy costs always have to be denominations of 5, but seriously, some spells should only cost 20 (not just in the ele line either).

Finally, in response to BahamutKaiser, you must be the first person I've ever heard who thinks necros need a buff. Soul Reaping is amazing! Gaining 10-13 energy every time anything dies, including spirits, minions, pets, enemies or allies, is already great. I can see where you're going with Fast Casting, but I still think you're underestimating that a little bit. It allows you to get off spells quickly and run. It's one of the things that make mesmers who they are: annoying.

Vexx007 · May 31, 2006, 12:59 PM // 12:59

My opinion is, to have an innate condition per attribute line would be nice BUT the Ele's should be revised per skill/spell etc.

I like the idea of:

Fire : x%...y% chance to do 0.5 additional burning damage per SPELL for every 4 points

OR

x% chance to do an additianal y% fire damage per SPELL for every 4 points

Air : x%...y% chance to do 0.5 additional blinding damage per SPELL for every 4 points

OR

an additional x%...y% chance armor penatration per SPELL for every 4 points

Earth : x%...y% chance to knockdown a foe per SPELL for every 4 points

Water : x%...y% chance to slowdown a foe by xx%...yy% per SPELL for every 4 points

I dont think this is overpowered and will actually make the Ele a threat for PvE and PvP, if slightly unreliable.

As on 31 May 2006 these spells where balanced:

* Glyph of Sacrifice: reduced the amount of time it recharges your next spell to 30 seconds.
* Ward against Harm: changed skill type to Ward Spell.

I feel there is a lot more that they can do as MOST spells needs a SLIGHT damage buff.

Ira Blinks · May 31, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I'd say water hexes should also cause minor attack speed decrease, like (10-20%) and negate attack speed buffs.

jummeth · May 31, 2006, 01:30 PM // 13:30

I don't think the conditions things are a very good idea. Its too cheap to spread mass conditions in too short a time.

Also the 1 second burning and what not will mean Frailty must be rebalanced.
Frailty+flare+4fire att, can possibly become one of the most damaging combos in the game. You don't even need to time it with flare's 1s cast.

@people who say HB to counter burning... Who has EVER used HB to heal a flare victim? HB is a disgustingly expensive skill for monks. Yes, 10en is expensive.

Adamant · May 31, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Personally these ideas are a bit overpowered.
My biggest complaint is the ele's long cast times. Just things like fireball @ 2 seconds, and rodgort's @ 3 seconds. Makes them very easily interupted, also making the ele basicly pointless when versing a mesmer. If only Anet used things like 1.5 seconds, because a 1 second fireball is too fast. Maybe theye should use their 5/4 second cast time more often.

lyra_song · May 31, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

I like Undivine's idea of giving Eles the five arrows >>>>> energy regen through their armors.

I think buffing individual spells would be much better, such as add more conditions to other spells such as:

Meteor Shower and Meteor: Add the condition of deep wound if it hits a knockdown target.
Firestorm: Burning for 1 second per hit
Phoenix: same

Master Fuhon · May 31, 2006, 05:58 PM // 17:58

If I can only make one suggestion without changing anything else, then here goes...

I think the extra regen ideas would give the elementalist an unfair advantage over any other class. My energy concerns come from the costs of the elemental spells themselves. Something like a 1% passive attunement on fire spells only for each point in fire. With the rounding factor considered, it would take 15 in fire to give you 1 energy return on 5 cost spells. There would need to be a new condition that attunements no longer stack, and this would make the "Elemental Attunement" skill an attractive elite for someone using more than one element, which I believe it was originally designed for.

I could also forsee attunement recharge reductions and boosting the length of the elite up to 60 seconds along with this change. This would put someone using elemental spells in a range of 46%-61% attunement energy management, and leave the energy storage elites for the casters who enjoy using their second profession. Run with this idea for awhile, and then consider whether more than 1% passive attunement can be balanced.

Bonuses across the board for any class using these skills would help with the balance issues. The only ones punished by this change would be the fast cast mesmers running dual attunements.

The Great Al · May 31, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

judging by the recent skill changes, it doesnt look like any of these ideas will ever be put into effect

Trylo · May 31, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx007

Also the 1 second burning and what not will mean Frailty must be rebalanced.
Frailty+flare+4fire att, can possibly become one of the most damaging combos in the game. You don't even need to time it with flare's 1s cast.

If you knew the past of Fragility, it has been rebalanced already because of Mark of Rodgort at 1 or 2 fire magic with a fire wand and 16 illusion. This was a fatal build killing in less than 10 seconds with a good attack speed +10% fire wand (collectors i think).

I like the armor idea, it seems to fit, and the other casters dont need it! if a necro had 5 energy regen then it would be unbalanced, but since the ele, offensively, doesnt stack up anymore.

Fire ~ For every offensive fire spell cast at 13...16 magic, you have a 9...33% chance to do an additional 1...2 seconds of burning. (this would open up flare spams again though...)

Water ~ For every offensive water spell cast at 13...16 magic, you have a 11...20% chance to inflict 1...10% slower attack speed with spells.

Earth ~ For every offensive earth spell cast at 13...16 magic, you have a 11...20% chance of knocking the opponent over for 1 second. If the spell was already knocking down a foe, they recover 1 second later than normal.

Air ~ For every offensive air spell cast at 13...16 magic, you have a 11...20% chance of doing an additional 1...10% of armor pentration.

Those are nice good numbers (ie the 3% denomination system already in GW). Im not to sure about the earth, maybe 10% is better?

exiled mat · May 31, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

There are very good ideas floating around here

Though i don't like the "boost the ele attunement" thing, because one shatter enchantment ownes your complete idea

I think ele's DO need at least 1 extra regen, because i'm sick of wanding things in the waiting for energy time

(somethimes i just /dance in the waiting time) In GVG/PVP you don't even have that 1 à 2 minutes you need to get back at full energy.

And as a solution to the flare spamming problem: Just say in the description: This spell doesn't trigger the fire special effect

(it sounds lame, but hey, it's balanced

)

lishi · May 31, 2006, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by exiled mat

There are very good ideas floating around here

Though i don't like the "boost the ele attunement" thing, because one shatter enchantment ownes your complete idea

I think ele's DO need at least 1 extra regen, because i'm sick of wanding things in the waiting for energy time

(somethimes i just /dance in the waiting time) In GVG/PVP you don't even have that 1 à 2 minutes you need to get back at full energy.

And as a solution to the flare spamming problem: Just say in the description: This spell doesn't trigger the fire special effect

(it sounds lame, but hey, it's balanced

)

fix your build and use your energy wise , and you dont need wait energy becouse you dont run out.

SpeedyKQ · May 31, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

I prefer simpler solutions. I'm not crazy about an elaborate system of bonuses for each attribute line.

I sorta like the fifth pip of energy idea, but I fear it would encourage even more people making eles and using only the secondary profession.

Another possibility: have your rank in Energy Storage also buff armor penetration. Ele spells almost never do the amount of damage advertised, because so few enemies have armor of only 60. Or else have your rank in each element increase armor penetration for that line, the same way your rank in swordsmanship increases critical hits.